Os dois tipos de aleatório no design de jogos



De acertos críticos a encontros aleatórios, e de caixas de saque a geração procedural, os videogames estão repletos de aleatoriedade. Neste episódio, observo como a aleatoriedade é usada nos jogos – e por que algumas formas são mais controversas do que outras. Apoie o Game Maker’s Toolkit no Patreon – https://www.patreon.com/GameMakersToolkit Faça Mark falar em seu estúdio, universidade ou evento – https://gamemakerstoolkit.tumblr.com Fontes Uncapped Look-Ahead and the Information Horizon | Keith Burgun http://keithburgun.net/uncapped-look-ahead-and-the-information-horizon/ Um estudo sobre transparência: como os jogos de tabuleiro são importantes | GDC Vault https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020408/A-Study-in-Transparency-How GameTek Classic 183 – Input Output Randomness | Ludology https://www.dicetower.com/game-podcast/ludology/gametek-classic-183-input-output-randomness Por que revelar tudo é o segredo do sucesso de Slay The Spire | Rock Paper Shotgun https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/02/19/why-revealing-all-is-the-secret-of-slay-the-spires-success/ Crate | Spelunky Wiki https://spelunky.fandom.com/wiki/Crate Gerador Aleatório | Tetris Wiki https://tetris.fandom.com/wiki/Random_Generator Level Feeling | Spelunky Wiki https://spelunky.fandom.com/wiki/Level_Feeling/HD Plano de interrupção | Etan Hoeppner https://ethanhoeppner.github.io/gamedesign/plan-disruption.html Fire Emblem True Hit | Serenes Forest https://serenesforest.net/general/true-hit/ A psicologia do design de jogos (tudo o que você sabe está errado) | GDC Vault https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1012186/The-Psychology-of-Game-Design Como os designers projetam a sorte nos videogames | Nautilus http://nautil.us/issue/70/variables/how-designers-engineer-luck-into-video-games-rp Role para sua vida: Tornando a aleatoriedade transparente em Tharsis | Gamasutra https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/263953/Roll_for_your_life_Making_randomness_transparent_in_Tharsis.php 12: Into the Breach com Justin Ma | The Spelunky Showlike http://thespelunkyshowlike.libsyn.com/12-into-the-breach-with-justin-ma Saiba mais Muitas faces da Geração Processual: Determinismo | Gamsutra https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/FranciscoRA/20160511/272419/Many_faces_of_Procedural_Generation_Determinism_classification_system_part_3.php Por que nossos cérebros não compreendem probabilidades intuitivamente | Scientific American https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-our-brains-do-not-intuitively-grasp-probabilities/ Como os jogos clássicos fazem uso inteligente da geração de números aleatórios | Gamasutra https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/320213/How_classic_games_make_smart_use_of_random_number_generation.php Jogos mostrados neste episódio (por ordem de aparição) Cuphead (2017) Enter the Gungeon (2016) Octopath Traveler (2018) Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Batalha (2017) Griftlands (em acesso antecipado) Dicey Dungeons (2019) Hearthstone (2014) The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth (2014) Darkest Dungeon (2016) Dead Cells (2018) SteamWorld Quest: Hand of Gilgamech (2019) Into the Breach (2018) Spelunky (2012) Armello (2015) Minecraft (2011) Chasm (2018) Downwell (2015) Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor (2014) No Man’s Sky (2016) Celeste (2018) Fortnite (2017) Mario Kart 8 (2014) Super Smash Bros. para Wii U (2014) Tekken 7 (2015) Super Mario Party (2018) Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night (2019) Borderlands 3 (2019) Call of Duty: WWII (2017) Valkyria Chronicles 4 ( 2018) Civilization V (2010) Wargroove (2019) Plants vs. Zombies (2009) XCOM: Enemy Within (2013) Chess Ultra (2017) Mark of the Ninja (2012) ) StarCraft II (2010) Slay the Spire (2019) Apex Legends (2019) Civilization IV (2005) XCOM 2 (2016) Overwatch (2016) FTL: Faster Than Light (2012) Card of Darkness (2019) Diablo III (2012) Tetris 99 (2019) Puyo Puyo Tetris (2017) Phoenix Point (2019) Fire Emblem: Three Houses (2019) Tharsis (2016) Capítulos 00:00 – Intro 01:28 – Por que usamos aleatoriedade 03:42 – O horizonte de informações 06 :06 – Os dois tipos de aleatoriedade 08:59 – Como a aleatoriedade de entrada pode falhar 13:32 – As vantagens da aleatoriedade de saída 17:50 – Conclusão Música usada neste episódio trilha sonora de Cuphead – Kristofer Maddigan (https://studiomdhr.bandcamp. com/releases) Trilha sonora de Tharsis – Half Age EP de Weval (https://atomnation.bandcamp.com/album/half-age-ep) Outros créditos RNGesus arte original de Dinsdale https://twitter.com/dinsdale1978 Super Mario Party – Luigi ganha por não fazer absolutamente nada | Nintendo Unity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5IyYNI28gM Fire Emblem: Three Houses – Novo Jogo Mais Enlouquecedor Passo a passo Parte 43! | MrSOAP999 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRZuFK3q9Q4 Deadpool 2 © 20th Century Fox Pandemic Card Art © Z-Man Games Contribua com legendas traduzidas – https://amara.org/en-gb/videos/C3IIn1JRUBXt/

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48 thoughts on “Os dois tipos de aleatório no design de jogos

  1. 2K has really taken this to heart with Midnight Suns! Turning away from the Output randomness of XCOM, now there’s the input randomness of the card draw.

  2. I'm surprised that you didn't talk about two different kinds of randomness … depleting decks vs. shuffling decks … (you sort of mentioned it in talking about Tetris, but not as a general theme) … consider X-COM … if everything breaks down into 5% increments, you've got 0% through 100% hit chance … and that each side has a deck of 21 cards (0%, 5%, 10%, etc.) that either get depleted (once you pull a 100% you won't play another until your entire 21 card deck is depleted) or shuffled (you could pull a 100% card turn after turn after turn if you got lucky enough).

    I prefer the depleting decks as it seems to create a push pull mechanism … if you draw poorly early on, you have the solace that later you'll necessarily draw well … while if you draw well early on, you have an incentive to finish quickly to avoid bad draws later.

    This would have to be explained somehow to the player, so that they know that the odds aren't random each time, but instead draw from a pool, where essentially you're going to be assured of both good and bad things happening.

  3. Although algorithms for random number generators are at times manually designed by developers, there are times where developers will use existing algorithms because of how reliable they are for specific situations(may be slightly tweaked though). One of which is Perlin Noise. It is know for having a form of randomness that is fairly controlled which is good for procedurally generated levels or maps in games. Minecraft actually uses this to develop its random terrain and determining which chunks certain biomes will take up.

  4. One of my favorite examples of output randomness, while from a game that's far from a strategy game, is Disco Elysium. In that game, you have a set of stats and skills you customize at the start, and can further change with level-ups, clothes, and "thoughts" you take on.

    Every time you use these skills, determined by a 2d6 dice roll + the skill modifier, is either a Red Check or a White Check.

    Red Checks are, in general, ones that come up as options only once or in very specific conversation lines, and in most games it'd be frustrating to have a fully random chance to suceed at these– especially since there's always at least a 3% chance to succeed or fail at ANY check. However, what DE does that I think is really fun is that, because the game is largely story-focused and has quite a good sense of humor as well, there's a lot of fail-forward going on. You fuck up your empathy check, or your rhetoric check, and it's okay because it leads to something insanely funny as Harry's broken mind forces him to say some hilariously stupid shit. Or on the other hand, it can lead to genuinely interesting, if painful, character development for Harry and Kim. Like, for example, that one Authority check I dare not spoil– You know the one I'm talking about. …or, hell, that other authority check that I dare not spoil.

    On the other hand are White Checks– these are ones that often show up at the start of a conversation or interaction tree, and you can retry them. However, you can only do so once you've leveled up that skill. I really like this, because it encourages you to, if you fail a white check to open a garbage can you wanna find evidence in, go do that other task you were somewhat less interested in to get some EXP, level up Physical Instrument, and go back to try again. And of course, these checks (while often to lesser degrees) are often sources of character development or funny moments.

  5. I see people complaining about XCOM 2 odds all the time. I love the game (and, yes I think grazed shots are bullshit in the game design. I prefer straight percentages).

    As a scientist, it is extremely frustating when I calculate the odds and miss five 80% shots in a row (the odd should be the product of 20% five times, interpreted in the RNG context). In my experience (and I have collected the data), I have more frequently missed five 80% shots in a row than hitted five shots on target in the same context.

    I really hope that for the Marvel game they are doing, and for the XCOM 3 they make us feel that it is a little bit more fair (I am talking about the feeling, not the number itself). I had to learn how the RNG system works to feel a little bit better about the game (and I do not think people in general want that. They just want a game that sounds fun to play for them).

  6. 14:20 "The best XCOM Players are those who have a backup plan if their shots miss." THANK. YOU!

    I have ben sick and tired of all these "90% shot missing means complete devastation of your game" memes I keep seeing. Strangely enough, I can reliably clear XCOM campaigns as long as I get past the hump that the early game (where you're just not given a lot to work with) actually is… And when I see how people who think I'm just lying about how easy the game is to me actually play, turns out they jump in with no planning and no plan B if things go sideways…

  7. 15:03 Which can be good news, it shows that a 10%, or even 1%, chance is not that fatalistic. Cause as long as it's not 0, an ocorrence is possible.

    15:10 SEEEEE!!!!! (and Jesus Christ… i don't even know what to say. I want to call him an "idiot" but that would be wrong, 99 is not 100, and once again, it's a good thing! It means the improbable can happen and there's hope)

  8. Your channel is a gift from the heavens, really. I'm struggling so much to become a better planner, especially under uncertainty, and the information you share is a life saver.

  9. 8:31 I don't know, this god omniscience displeases me, at least at first glance. It's like you're opponent is not there, it's an unfair advantage that hinders you as a thinker. But i know, mma and chess are based on the fact of watching so if is complex enough, even if you know the attacks they have the amount of combinations can be HUGE.

  10. 7:46 But you only get angry (and i was very guilt of this and still struggle to maintain balance because of a forgetful mind) because you don't accept the reality as it is. that shit just happens. And the best players and problem solvers are like Akagi Shigeru, Miyamoto Musashi and Sasaki Kojiro, they stay in the reality of the present instead of clinging to the desires of they're imagination.

    Trying to play god and want the world to bend to your will only do bad for you. In the realm of gaming, of course you doesn't want to do what Capcom did SF5 if your game is intended to be like Chess.

  11. My friend showed me XCOM and let me play a mission. It was a simple escort mission, with a turn timer and some enemies. It was going alright, i was killing enemies and it was actually going pretty well, easier than anticipated. Then the building all my units were standing on collapsed and everyone died or got surrounded by enemies immediately.
    It was only random cause I didn't know the game 😛

  12. Doesn't pandemic return all your city cards back to the top of the deck? So you actually can't draw 2 outbreak cards in a row. Instead all the cities where the virus is spreading will be drawn again.

    Maybe I don't remember correctly…

  13. XCom RNG actually feels like a bug, that the devs didn't even notice, let alone fix. I believe they simply lack in a few departments, creativity, problem solving ability, forecast ability, or maybe just investment money.

    Players usually report the shots they missed, but the same issue also applies to the ones that hit: I had numerous maps with an average hit chance of 60%, yet out of 15-20 shots every shot hit (at most 1 missed). This several maps in a row. What are the chances of that?

    The game feels too easy at such a point, like picking the wrong difficulty setting (you also know they're lying with the hit chances). But then along in every last campaign I played there was a mission (around 15th) where 3-4 80% shots all miss in a row (the backup plan also missed. And the backup-of-the-backup-plan, too). Also additional stuff can happen, like 1-2 new enemy squads joining the fight not at regular intervals, but randomly walking into the shooting they previously couldn't hear. Or despite having high hit chance the damage rolling the lower number making enemies survive with 1HP, tank twice the shots and have the ability to oneshot your soldiers. And before the player can blink, he lost 3 of his strongest soldiers (may I also remind that when soldiers level up, they can move farther, and also EVERY mission has a timer of some sort).

    Sure, these things aren't impossible from a probability point of view, but
    1) it happens WAY too often in XCOM, to an unnatural degree. And
    2) it can make a previously way too easy campaign suddenly unwinnable. Which is not just frustrating, but dumb, too.

    This is utterly screwed game design, by people who think they can dictate how players experience fun. Bad games usually don't lack in just one department, but in several at the same time. The UI of XCom is atrocious, too. And there are numerous logic fallacies, like enemies being deaf to the shooting next door, or pathfinding ignoring obstacles and deciding that climbing a 2 story building and then jumping down again is shorter than just sidestepping…. jumping down 2 stories does no damage, but falling down 1 is like a grenade in your face… etc.

    I think the only way to play XCOM is to savescum the sht out of it. Which I don't find enjoyable anymore.

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